Interesting, I look forward to the next posts.

Technically, IHOP is just a sect, a branch of Christianity as a whole.

Cults are new religions and so on, like Scientology.

Great post; hope to see you in KC sometime next year

I was admitted to IHOP this Fall 2009. However, before I decided to accept I sent by e-mail quotes by Mike Bickle regarding Bob Jones and asked Dean Ditto to reply to whether the leadership still was under his influence and if they even believed the statements made.

I received an e-mail within 2 hours from another staff member informing me my admissions had been terminated.

David,

That's a crazy story. I'm tempted to not believe you, actually, because it seems so out of character for Dean Ditto and others I know in the IHOPU administration. However, I have heard stories of people having problems getting into IHOPU for strange reasons. If you'd like to email me, we can discuss it further.

What I can tell you immediately is that the prophetic words that Bob Jones gave to Mike Bickle in the 80s are absolutely still believed and proclaimed. Mike just finished giving a series on the stories from that time, which you can download for free from the IHOP-KC website. It's here under "Ten year celebration notes."

I guess I should ask, then - for you, is it tantamount to heresy to believe that the prophetic words that Bob Jones spoke in the early 80s about Kansas City and the prayer movement were truly from God? If so, then you would certainly have a challenging time at IHOP-KC. I'd strongly encourage you to listen to Mike's messages on the prophetic history for yourself before making that decision though.

Jeff:

Odd but soon after I posted the comment I received an e-mail from Dean Ditto claiming this was all some sort of administrative coincidence. I had sent a rather stern e-mail to him when my admission to FSM was terminated. He apologized for his tardy reply.

However, no recognition or response was made regarding the absurd comments I had pasted and sent reportedly by Mike Bickle regarding the Houdini magic carpet flying heaven guru Bob Jones and his trips and visions and other insane remarks.

Bickle is quoted as claiming Bob Jones goes into trances and visions in his sleep and fights demons. Big Bob wakes up in the morning with gashes on his arm and red streaks on his face and tells Bickle "they got me". It is reported by Mike Bickle that Jesus told Bob Jones to forgive 12 people or kill them. Bickle claims Bob Jones will have 5-10-15 visions and trances a day at times. Do we need to mention his handling of one other goof called Todd Bentley?

Don't forget. Bob Jones has been institutionalized in the past. Hmm? Wonder why? He shoulda stayed.

However, here's the kicker. I attend City of Grace here in Phoenix. My Pastor, Terri Crist, had a church in KC before moving to Scottsdale. He personally told me last month that Bob Jones told him God was preparing a wife for him and he would meet and marry her that year and they would have a son a year later. Sounds great! One problem. Mt Pastor was already married with a family. I'm sure his wife was not impressed with Big Bobs blundering goof. What a moron. These clowns can really do damage in the body of christ.

Oh.....wait......I forgot......according to Rick Joyner and Mike Bickle, the Body of Christ is immature to the point where we are only 60% accurate in prophecy at best....so I guess Bob Jones gets a pass?

Hey...no problemo! No accountability. Who needs it?

I don't think I need to go into all the ridiculous sexual stuff do I? Molesting a daughter and wife, women standing before him naked in his personal office ...etc.

My point with Dean Ditto was to either acknowledge the statements, deny the statements or acknowledge with an explanation I e-mailed in I only sent a small sample. Trust me.

I am not so concerned about mistakes in the past. I am concerned of the influence of this demonic nut on the current staff at IHOP as well as his influence today in the life of Michael Bickle. I know Allen Shepard still mentions him cuz I heard him on GodTV the other week. Not good. Not good at all folks. Mike Bickle still endorses the man today does he?

Well. I'll pass on IHOP. No thanks.

David,

Bob Jones is not currently at IHOP-KC, nor does he currently have any direct influence on the leadership. I was very intentional in saying "The words which Bob Jones gave to Mike Bickle in the early 80s."

There is by no means a blanket endorsement of everything that Bob Jones has ever done. To you, does a prophetic person need to have a 100% accuracy rate in order for anything they say to be from God? That was the Biblical standard only for Old Testament prophets "like Moses" (Deut 18:15-22; though even in the OT it wasn't quite that simple - see 1 Kings 13:11-32)

In the New Testament, the standard of accuracy is different. If it were not, then why did Paul tell the Thessalonians in the same breath to "not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good?" (1 Thes 5:20-21)

God did not set up the Church to be dependent on the word of prophets in the way the people of God were before the Incarnation. The Final Prophet has already come; His name is Jesus the Messiah. And now all those who are His have His Spirit and must discern His mind together, through the various gifts of that Spirit operating in unity - including the gift of prophecy.

Anyway, my goal is not to defend IHOP-KC; as I've written on this blog, I'm not interested in trying to protect Mike Bickle's reputation - or my own - by answering every possible accusation. You are free to examine what IHOP-KC teaches and test it against scripture. If you come to the conclusion that it's not Biblical, then by all means reject it. But I'd encourage you to spend time meditating on 2 Tim 2:24-26 before you begin "exposing heretics."

Well said Jeff. I like your attitude.

I apologize for not responding to your question regarding the possibility of Bob Jones accurately prophesying the prayer movement coming to KC back in the 80's. It was late last night and I see I made some typos and forgot to reply to the question. I was very tired.

First, let me state I have a majority of the Mike Bickle cd's including the Jesus Encounter series, which goes into the history of IHOP, it's initial stages as well as prophesies by both Jones and Paul Cain. Thus, I am aware of the IHOP past and have a pretty good idea of what you refer too.

Actually, I met Paul Cain in 2005 at the Overland Sheraton, where I attended the Joseph's Company meeting. He was ill and did not speak as planned. This was my last visit to IHOP. The year before I had dinner with Mike Bickle and sat next to him and had a fascinating discussion with him and others at the table. It's hard not to like Mike. I believe he has a real heart for God. No doubt in my mind.

Ok...to your question. Is it possible Bob Jones prophesied a word from God regarding the prayer movement? Sure. I have no problem accepting that at all. What I have seen is men who God has used greatly fall into some sort of confused bliss and literally fall off the boat and into utter foolishness with their gifting(s). They often stay in denial while leaders and friends support their ministry gift as from the Lord. Keep in mind. God's use of a spiritual gift is not His endorsement on the individual. Consider Robert Tilton.

Key for Jones and others like him is to be on guard to familiar spirits whose goal is to destroy the credibility of the messenger with exciting and incredible prophesies that are not from God. This includes an emphasis on God doing miracles and all kinds of phenomenal things. There will usually be an emphasis on revelation, which unfortunately all too often is gnosticism. The Word of Faith camp I came out of does the same. Unfortunately, Bickle has been sucked into this. Sad but true.

Many of the people connected to IHOP are still my favorites. Bob Sorge is awesome. His books have changed my life and perspective of almost everything. Dutch Sheets is great. He was just at my church. George Otis and Francis Frangepan are also favorites. Unfortunately, Cindy Jacobs is a total flake. A rambling nebulous stick. Her and Chuck Piece both.

There are many many good things goin on at IHOP. Why do you think I applied? The emphasis on the first commandment, fasting and intercession and preparation for the end times. As Bickle says "feed on intimacy with God and eschatology". I agree. This is why I was interested. However, until I see a public rebuke of Bob Jones on the level that Mike Bickle and Rick Joyner did on Paul Cain I have decided I want no part of this organization. I wish them God's very best!

Jeff:

No reply?

I deny your assertion that Bob Jones has no influence on IHOP today.

You're wrong pal. Way off.

What dope are you smokin?

Jones is right smack dab in the middle and it would take a moron to not see it.

Back up your comment Jeff.

I am calling your bluff!

Even Dean Ditto of IHOP admitted to me of Jones current influence and all interns must watch the IHOP videos of Bob Jones and Mike in the early days.

You're out to lunch.

David

David,

Sorry, I didn't realize you were expecting a further reply. As I noted earlier, I'm not interested in debating or defending myself, Mike Bickle, or IHOP-KC.

As for the idea of Bob Jones' "direct influence" on IHOP-KC today, I think you misunderstood me. The words that Bob Jones gave while he was here are definitely regarded as being genuinely from God, as I said before, and stories about things that Bob Jones did or said while he was in Kansas City are repeated fairly often to illustrate points, etc. We also sell his books in the bookstore - along with tons of other authors, ranging from John Piper and D.A. Carson to Jack Deere and John Wimber to Shane Claiborne and Pete Grieg to Bernard of Clairvaux and Hans Urs Von Balthasar.

So I'm sorry if you took my statement to mean that Bob Jones' ministry or prophetic words had been rebuked or expunged from the record at IHOP-KC. They haven't been and I'm sure they won't be.

However, I have never seen Bob Jones in KC. He did record a few short videos for the 10 year anniversary, which you can watch here. In fact, that was only the second time that I ever saw him - the first time was at the Call 7/7/07, and I didn't even know who he was.

What I meant about direct influence is that Bob Jones is not on the leadership team here. I have never heard his name mentioned in regard to current decisions - unless it is to quote something he said 20 years ago. I hope that's clear this time.

Jeff:

I poked ya with a cattle prod but in love. A little punchy but I trust you don't take it as mean. This was not my intention. I was challenging your statement that Bob Jones is no influence today. My investiagtion proves otherwise.

Jeff, the following is an endorsement of Bob Jones, whose name should never even be mentioned at IHOP let along sell his books or tapes.

"The words that Bob Jones gave while he was here are definitely regarded as being genuinely from God, as I said before, and stories about things that Bob Jones did or said while he was in Kansas City are repeated fairly often to illustrate points, etc."

Your words not mine.

I now refuse to have anything to do with IHOP, who follows the perverted path of the Word of Faith Ministries of the 80's and 90's. I came out of non-sense several years ago. False prophesies of prosperity and false teaching on materialism. No accountability for lying prophets like Kim Clement, Benny Hinn, John Avanzini, Paul Crouch and his funny farm of friends. It's the same thing all over again. Now their names are Chuck Pierce, Cindy Jacobs, Bob Jones and Paul Cain. Same crap. new cover. No thanks!

I'll stay right here in Phoenix and away from IHOP.

However, your statement on Bob Jones influence is wrong. He is still regarded as a true prophet by IHOP staff. Horese manure!

David,

I said from the beginning that you were free to decide for yourself if what IHOP-KC teaches about the prophetic is legitimate, and reject it if it's not Biblical. You are still free to do that.

But I haven't seen you give any Biblical reasons for doing so. All you have done is call people a lot of names and vent a lot of anger against the church tradition you grew up in. I can understand that. I've had to do a a bit of that myself. But that's not a very reliable way to determine what is true according to the Bible.

Bob Jones is a sinner. Does that make him a false prophet? I hope not, or else we'd better throw out Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc.

Bob Jones fell into public scandal. Does that make him a false prophet? If so, we'd better throw out the Psalms, because David had a public scandal beyond anything we've seen in the 20th century.

Maybe Bob Jones did get off track and fall into the "health and wealth" error. I wouldn't be surprised at all. A whole bunch of prophetic people have done that. That is a more serious thing. But the problem isn't that those people are necessarily false prophets; it's that they aren't teachers. The church was so wowed by their words of knowledge and signs and wonders - which are all meant to point the people to the accurate proclamation of the Scriptures - that they gave the prophets the mic and respected them as though they were teachers. And the result has often been disastrous.

That distinction is what I'm talking about when I say that Bob Jones has no current direct influence on the leadership IHOP-KC. If one assumes that a dream or vision trumps everything including wisdom, appointed leaders, and the Scriptures, then you either have to submit completely to the prophet or you have to reject him completely as a false prophet.

That's a false dichotomy. Bob Jones is regarded as a true prophet of God at IHOP-KC. But if he calls up Mike Bickle and tells him he had a dream that flatly contradicts Scripture, IHOP-KC will reject that word - while still not rejecting the man.

That's what 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21 means.

And BTW, the "health and wealth" error is explicitly rebuked at IHOP-KC. In fact, the goal that is proclaimed here is to give away as much money to the poor and the preaching of the Gospel as you possibly can. (That's what the "O" in IHOP stands for - extravagant Offering for the poor and the Gospel.)

Hey Jeff:

Keep in mind I applied to IHOP. Why? Cuz I wanted to go there. Why?

First, let me state I have a majority of the Mike Bickle cd’s including the Jesus Encounter series, which goes into the history of IHOP, it’s initial stages as well as prophesies by both Bob Jones and Paul Cain. Thus, I am aware of the IHOP past and have a pretty good idea of what you refer too. I have attended numerous events at IHOP like Harp and Bowl…etc.

Actually, I met Paul Cain in 2005 at the Overland Sheraton, where I attended the Joseph’s Company meeting. He was ill and did not speak as planned. This was my last visit to IHOP. The year before I had dinner with Mike Bickle and sat next to him and had a fascinating discussion with him and others at the table. It’s hard not to like Mike. I believe he has a real heart for God. No doubt in my mind.I love his passion for Jesus.

Some have asked the question. Is it possible Bob Jones prophesied a word from God regarding the prayer movement?

Sure. I have no problem accepting that at all. However Jeff, what I have seen is men who God has used greatly fall into some sort of confused bliss and literally fall off the boat and into utter foolishness with their gifting(s). This has happened to Bob Jones. These people often stay in denial while leaders and friends support their ministry gift as from the Lord. They ignore confrontation at all levels. Keep in mind. God’s use of a spiritual gift is not His endorsement on the individual. Consider Robert Tilton and Roberts Liardon, whom I was legal counsel too.

Key for Jones and others like him is to be on guard to familiar spirits whose goal is to destroy the credibility of the messenger with exciting and incredible prophesies that are not from God. This includes an emphasis on God doing miracles and all kinds of phenomenal things. There will usually be an emphasis on revelation, which unfortunately all too often is gnosticism. The Word of Faith camp I came out of does the same. Unfortunately, Bickle has been sucked into this. Sad but true.

Many of the people connected to IHOP are still my favorites. Bob Sorge is awesome. His books have changed my life and perspective of almost everything. Dutch Sheets is great. I love his book on Intercessory Prayer. He was just at my church. George Otis and Francis Frangepan are also favorites. Unfortunately, Cindy Jacobs is a total flake. A rambling nebulous stick. Her and Chuck Piece both are out to lunch. Permanently. False prophets are a dime a dozen today and we need to stay arms length from them Jeff. They do damage to the body of christ.

In my opinion there are many good things goin on at IHOP. I have personally witnessed myself. Why do you think I applied? The emphasis on the first commandment, fasting and intercession and preparation for the end times. As Bickle says “feed on intimacy with God and eschatology”. I agree. This is why I was interested. However, until I see a public rebuke of Bob Jones on the level that Mike Bickle and Rick Joyner did on Paul Cain I have decided I want no part of this organization.

Keep in mind Jeff, Bob Jones has been institutionalized in the past. He molested a women and her daughter. He is well known for his sedution of women to disrobe before him to "stand naked before the Lord".

How can IHOP stand by this man? He should be ex-communicated.

Jeff:

Here are just a few of Bickles claims about Bob Jones.

1.) Mike Bickle explains the level of spiritual warfare Jones often experiences (Vineyard in Anaheim, CA in 1989): “Bob Jones has come to me several times after ministry. . . you may not believe this, but it’s true, where. . . he’s… went to bed at night and woke up the next morning with a big red streak across his face or a big cut, gash on his arm. He’d say, ‘They got me last night’. He was at warfare in the realm of trances and visions and there was marks left on his body.” (Discernment newsletter vol.1. 4 1990)

2.).)“You know, I’m going to tell you something about Bob. Ever since that time in ‘74 when he was filled with the Holy Spirit he began to see the technicolor visions and the Lord began to visit him. Since that time he has seen many, many times, five, ten visions and dreams a night. And when I first met him, I couldn’t hardly comprehend that. I said, “Five or ten a night!” He said, “Oh, yes, all the time. Sometimes more, some times three or four” (Mike Bickle, Visions and Revelations, 1988)


3.) Jones said, “He then saw Jesus in the form of a light who would grab and kiss” men and women of different ages and then make them disappear by absorbing them into his body! “It was like two big ole doors right here in his heart and it’d be just that, and they was gone.” “… He then saw people that Jesus didn’t want who were on “an elevator and an escalator” to hell which was like “a cold storage place.” Jesus then commissioned him to touch the leaders in a new last days church so that he could absorb “a billion souls unto myself in the last day,” Jones said. (Mike Bickle with Bob Jones, Visions and Revelations, transcript, series of five tapes from the fall of 1988.)

4.) Jones explains to us that his healing power came when he was struck by lightning:

“It was about 76. A bolt of lightning. I was inside I didn’t have my wires grounded in the basement down there, and I grabbed ahold of the refrigerator, and lightning hit the wires outside, and a great blue flame came in. And a ball of fire danced all over that basement, and didn’t hurt me. But from that time forth my hands worked funny. And a lot of people have had a lot of good laughs about it. But a lot of people have got healed by it, too. And miracles and everything else, and got anointed by it. Anytime God is going to start a fire, he starts it with lightning. And you can take a little of that fire and impart it wherever it is needed. And it will start a God’s fire” ( Bob Jones, Visions and Revelations, 1988.)

5.) Bob Jones was told that the general level of prophetic revelation in the church was about 65% accurate at this time. Some are only about 10% accurate, a very few of the most mature prophets are approaching 85% to 95% accuracy. Prophecy is increasing in purity, but there is a still a long way to go for those who walk in this ministry. This is actually grace for the church now, because 100% accuracy in this ministry would bring a level of accountability to the church which she is too immature to bear at this time. It would result in too many Annaniases and Sapphiras” (The Prophetic Ministry” Rick Joyner. Morningstar Prophetic Newsletter. Vol. 3, No. 2, p. 2).

In my discernment this is all crap Jeff. Utter non-sense!

I want no part of this kind of mental illness.

David,

I think this conversation has run its course. We obviously disagree and aren't going to change each other's minds. I don't think we're covering any new ground at this point.

May the Lord give you grace to love Him with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and may you be a blessing in Phoenix and whatever ministry you partner with.

Hey Thanks Jeff:

We'll agree to disagree and sit down in heaven someday and know how far off we were back on earth. It won't matter then.

In the mean time I have a lot to learn. I admit..there's a whole lot worse one could do than go to IHOP, false prohets and all. Like I stated...I liked a lot of the emphasis put forth by Mike Bickle and staff.

All the best Jeff!

In my opinion, IHOP has begun its own sect of Christianity. Undoubtably. The whole "bridal paradigme" as well as the use of "contemplative prayer" which is neither Biblical nor safe in my mind. Speaking the scriptures repeatitivly is no different then a mantra. Those who are intrested in study the Bible literally, I would not recommend IHOP KC. I also do not agree with their practice of repackaged eastern religious practices, and calling it a "revival" or a "new move of the Holy Spirit."

I love Jesus, and I love the word.. I do not like IHOP. It's a deceptive, seductive "form" of Christianity just like the dozen or so other denominations of Christianity. That's all.

May I make one comment? I don't agree with everything IHOP does or teaches. BUT many people have given their lives to Christ, have finally accepted who they are and no longer hate themselves or desire to kill themselves, and many people have gone out with boldness to take the gospel to the lost and hurting because they have gone to IHOP. IHOP is also partnered with several other ministries across the US including Campus Crusade for Christ and YWAM in a ministry called CALL2ALL to help fulfill the Great Commission. Surely not all the ministries listed would partner with IHOP if it were so off base. I think the most effective way we can evaluate IHOP is to look at the fruit (Matthew 7:17).

I do not know what is wrong with healing and revival; Peter and John healed a crippled beggar and disciples of Christ were sent to evangelize. I do not know enough to say if some preacher is perverted or whatever, but I have nothing against IHOP. In fact, our family has the web stream on a lot and I am going there soon.